The increase in taxes will prove to be counter-productive. As you increase my taxes you will decrease my ability to spend which will decrease the sales tax and sales revenue for businesess. The income level is not the right lvel. The level should have been higher and retirement income excluded from the calculations.

If the tax kicks in at $100000 for singles, it should kick in at $200000 for married couples. Stop punishing people for getting married. It is bad enough MD denies the right to marry for gay people, but hey, they can still get divorced in MD.

Vote the people out who approved this.

As with most legislation, the devil is in the details. So to Del. Kelly’s point in the final paragraph of the article: her hypothetical “family of four living on $150,000” will see NO TAX INCREASE. The law affects those making OVER $150,000 and then minimally at first.

Should this struggling (and I use the word loosely) family of four have an income of $175,000, they will pay this year an additional tax of .25% on the $25,000 over $150,000 which would amount to $62.50. If the family struggles with an income of $200,000, their total additional tax for the year will be $125.

Call me fiscally irresponsible, but it would seem to me that a family making $200,000 per year can see their way clear to giving up an additional $125 (I know mine can).

In other words, the vast majority of the revenue will be raised from those making significantly more than this. Again, the devil is in the details, so let’s not cry “wolf” too precipitously.

I have already arrnaged to reduce my taxable income in Maryland this year by more than $50,000; and am now actively looking to relocate to NOVA. O'Malley et al will eventually succeed in ensuring that MOCO achieves the same economic viability as Baltimore City and PG County. But I will not be one of those they economically crucify to achieve their liberal agenda.

The governor's habit of breaking up our communities when establishing state legislative districts and Congressional districts was planned - to ensure that he could continue to siphon money from here an send it to Baltimore.

With all due respect to the above commenter, no one is crying wolf in this matter. The tax burden has become too heavy in this County and the perception is that people are punished for any financial success they may attain. That is a confiscatory policy because there is a mistaken impression in Annapolis and Baltimore that the majority of Montgomery Countians are somehow "rich". IF some of the money that taxpayers are paying into the State revenues was coming back to the County at the very least to repair the horrendous condition of the State roads, then there would be less of a hue and outcry. Elected officials are bound by the oath of the office they take to listen to We the People who elected them. From the very first days of our existence as a country, excessive and arbitrary taxation was an issue. Once the balance tips into the perception of oppressive taxation, then the people rebel and say enough is enough.

Still too much money being spent and wasted by the State...so for us to give more to the same old spending makes me cringe. I agree it may be time to move to NOVA. In addition our property tax went way up a few years ago but since the values of houses, including mine, has dropped as measured by sales prices I haven't seen a decrease in my basis for the calculation of our pt payment. Time for O'Malley to go. I am happy to help out those who need it and do plenty of that through charity but if this guy keeps raising taxes all over the board I won't spend a dime in this state nor will be able to be charitable.

Tax and spend democrats at work again. Keep this trend up and the so-called rich will leave MOCO and Maryland. How about reducing spending, but that never crossed O'Malley's spend only mind. Vote these spenders out of office and lets get some fiscal responsibility back in Md.

If you take over one million dollars a week out of montgomery county businesses it does not matter who is paying that tax bill, it only matters who is no longer reciveing that money in the county to pay their employees and taxes ....

The rich will always pay their mortgage etc... they will just cut back on the car detailing and maids hours...

omalley is a mental midget.

I paid more than 250K in taxes to MD state last year. My employees probably paid another 500K. MD gov will loose all of this, because I'm moving to VA, and taking my business there. That's 750K of direct taxation lost, plus sales tax, plus ancillary lost business. Lets say 1 mil. This is what I know of first hand because it's ME :), I know of a few others planning the same. Now how much extra did the govt. make due to this tax increase? They claim 260mil - their claims are always over-hyped. Either way, it's 259mil now.

Go f' yourself malley. You're not burning my hard earned money on your unproductive govt. employee meetings or 911 operators snoring on an emergency call.

Virginia is looking better and better every day.....VOTE THESE IDIOTS IN MARYLAND OUT OF OFFICE!!!!!!

I used to laugh at Maryland's unofficial state slogan, "If you can dream it, then we can tax it." Now, it's no laughing matter at all!

Maryland seems hell bent on chasing away business and wealthy residents over to Northern Virginia

Peter,

Nice analysis.

Melanie,

“Virginia is looking better and better every day?” Only if you enjoy having a probe stuck up your private parts for no reason (as proscribed by Virginia law) should you ever find that you need an abortion.

Opinions on taxes are based on what an individual earns and what it take to live here. Richer individuals usually don't mind paying a little more, but those struggling to make a living see it different. It is the spendings that concerns me. There are some excellent comments made here on the Patch Blog. I know retiree who move to states where their pension is not taxed. I prefer to stay here and keep the spending down and taxes reasonable. It concerns me to see houses in foreclosure. We don't hear about the people who loose their homes or can't pay their taxes. My parents moved to Florida because of the high taxes.

Thanks for the comments, everyone. Please keep things civil. If higher income taxes aren't the answer to the state's budget issues, what is? What method would you like to see your legislators try out?

Jag, I respectfully disagree. I graduated from Montgomery Blair in 1965, with the peak of the baby boomers. Our graduating class had over 1,000 students. In my three years at Blair, I never experienced overcrowding, although there must have been about 3,000 students at the time. Also, our nearby rival, Northwood, accomodated many additional students that are most likely now attending the new Blair. What has happened to the old Blair now is a travesty. I walked through the campus a couple years ago and it had really gone to seed. Some of the windows on the original building were boarded up with plywood. The grounds were obviously neglected, with large bare patches and tall weeds. It is hard to believe that it is functioning as part of the school system. I further disagree that the intersection of University and Colesville is not inherently prime commercial real estate due to its location. When I was in high school, it was known as Four Corners.

Yes, Jag, based upon my own firsthand experience, Wiki is wrong concerning the size of the student body at the old Blair. My graduating class definitely had over 1,000 students, and the sophomore and junior classes were of comparable size, for a total enrollment of about 3,000, not much different than the 3,400 you report for the new Blair. The old Blair could easily have been expanded to accomodate 3,400 students, and have provided them with a much more beautiful and expansive campus. The old Blair was every bit the magnet school that you attribute to the new Blair. A disproportionate number of graduates went on to attend top colleges like MIT and Harvard, including yours truly. Blair was known for its CPA and AP courses in math, physics, chemistry, and English, even back in 1965. A number of celebrities graduated from the old Blair, including Goldie Hawn, Carl Bernstein, Ben Stein, and Connie Chung. In my opinion, there was absolutely no excuse for abandoning the old Blair and sticking the taxpayers with the bill.

I make it a point to know my elected representatives at city, county, and state levels and they know me and what I want for my community. Sure, you can cut corners, ignore the aspects of government that most don't see or don't want to see. Sure you can move to Virginia. But- not me! I like it here and I'm willing to pay for the kind of community we have. Look around you. What do you see in MoCo ? You see the best school system in the nation that guarantees our future prosperity. You see competent, hard working, uncorrupted public servants doing their best . Nothing is perfect but we in MoCo are doing about the best that can be done. Enjoy it and be thankful for your good fortune.

@jag
With all due respect, you just don't get it. It's OK though.....I didn't expect that you would and frankly your comment supports what I said. I feel no driving need to attempt to explain it to you. My comment was directed to Brigitta who like me has a long history in Rockville and MoCo. and has seen the damage done.....

Maryland income taxes on higher income people are outrageous. Too easy for elected leaders to shift the burden of ever increasing spending on to a small group so many others can ride free (freeloaders and deadbeats). Class warfare and vote buying in full swing. Nearly half the households in Maryland pay no income tax at all. I can see why they would like more public spending paid for by other people. The Maryland Medicaid program is one example out of control spending ---- with millions of dollars in fraud every year. Many other programs waste money on people not legally allowed into the programs, but little is done to control or stop this abuse. Time for new leadership.

Ah, the PROGs have once again appeared in their usual arrogant and condescending comments to anyone that does not agree with their worldview. It's a blow to their vast egos when we the common folk, the proles, as they like to call us, express sincere and honest opinions, and yes, some anguish, about the real and dismal state of affairs in the People's Republic of Montgomery County. So light up the page with your blazing defenses of the Taxmegeddon State. We await your disdain.

@jag
You never get it, you're always curious :), things are explained to no avail. I think the problem is a lack of listening and understanding. You don't "really" want an answers, cause you are'nt going to listen anyway.
Folks share their life experiences with here and you don't accept them because it doesn't show up on Wiki. So remain ig'nant as you state, it's your choice....

@Jerry
"I've also seen a major demographic shift from middle class semi-rural folks to urban yuppies who demand that we all pay for a more expensive lifestyle in terms of services. Sadly, the longtime residents of this County have simply been outvoted by newcomers, based upon my observations, and many have been taxed so heavily that they are forced to leave."

Jerry;
You are 100% correct in your observations.........well said.

The discussion was proceeding in a rational and civil way with an open and frank exchange of views until the little PROGs appeared on cue, probably dispatched by their local political party committee or County office building to douse the dangerous flames of opposition. Typical comments like "what's in your tea?" (read: Tea Party) or ig'nant or duh (read: white trash). The PROGGIES are so transparent. And, unfortunately, pathetic.

Getting back to revenues for the State of Maryland, rather than just Montgomery County, here is a perhaps novel, though sure to be controversial, idea. There are other ways to generate state revenues than taxes. Maryland, and other states for that matter, could readily become an energy exporting state. For decades, the nuclear plant at Calvert Cliffs has been humming along with nary a hiccup, and there are presently plans to expand it. Presently, Maryland is frittering away precious tax dollars investigating wildly speculative schemes like offshore wind turbines, when the answer has been with us all along. Why not expand the state's nuclear energy base and sell electricity? It's a surefire revenue producer. Since circa 1976, France has been 80 percent nuclear, and it is an energy exporting state, selling electricity to Germany, Italy, and London. Despite the present Eurozone crises, France remains financially strong and relatively energy independent. It's time for a new era of unlimited energy and unprecedented prosperity, not draconian conservation measures, insufferable austerity programs, and---what we are mostly discussing here---oppressive taxation. We could also use a civilian version of Hyman Rickover, father of the US nuclear Navy, to defuse public fear of nuclear energy.

@jag
"I was just curious why you thought the way you do (it didn't add up in my head - you said you were on a fixed or moderate income, but are against the way the state has decided to cut its projected budget gap this decade (taxing six figure incomers)). That's certainly a rarer opinion than not."

Well young fella, you kind of made my point about you. First, you're "curious again", second I never, ever said I was on a fixed-moderate income, yet you say I said that, and lastly that I was against the way the state handled it's budget.

It's that listening thing again.......

@jag
I was moving along, yet you asked me another question and used incorrect information in that question, I pointed that out, you don't like it. By the way, in my literally hundreds of posts I have never stated my financial position, nor my age.
Thank you for the heartfelt wishes.... :)))

I've received non-negative responses from Jag and Macadoodle, and so let's pursue the energy exporting idea a little further. First, a fundamental observation is that to prosper and expand, an economy, including the Maryland economy, must have an abundant and reliable source of energy. Texas is an energy exporting state, and it doesn't have any state income taxes. Alaska is an energy exporting state and it actually has a NEGATIVE income tax. Maryland doesn't have any oil worth mentioning, and so nuclear is a compelling logical choice. Also, with nuclear, size isn't everything. Maryland doesn't have to be as large as Texas or Alaska. Fortunately, for us, the Eurozone has been a test laboratory. The Eurozone states in the deepest financial trouble are the same ones that have avoided nuclear. Greece has one measly 5-MW research reactor. Italy shut down all of its reactors in 1990. Ireland has no reactors. Spain rejected nuclear for inefficient solar. Portugal rejected nuclear for inefficient wind turbines. In contrast, France, which we previously discussed, is 80 percent nuclear. Belgium is 50 percent nuclear. Sweden is also 50 nuclear. You don't read about financial crises in those countries. More in a moment...

NUCLEAR ENERGY, PART 2: There is enough thorium to fuel nuclear plants for the next 100,000 years, ending our energy and related economic worries for the foreseeable future. According to my NRC colleagues, the cost of a 2.0 Gigawatt plant is about $3 billion, not cheap, but affordable for Maryland, especially for something that is going produce revenue. By the way, it would take 64 square miles of densely packed solar panels to produce 2 Gigawatts, and that's only when the sun is shining. It would take 4,000 wind turbines to produce 2 Gigawatts,and that's only when the wind is blowing. Jag, with respect to transmission losses, we need only deliver the surplus electricity for sale to the nationwide grid, and then it's not our problem. Still sound interesting?

I've got close friends who live in Virginia, specifically in Annandale, and they own their own business in Falls Church that is growing strong, now employing about a dozen people. Whenever I tell them about the rallying cry of the Montgomery County teapartier, which is usually "I'm leaving for Virginia because of the taxes!", my friends just laugh. They've explained to me that the taxes they're paying are actually quite high - for instance, there's a city income tax in Falls Church (something that would help us in Rockville).

I went to look at the actual data, to determine exactly how much of a discrepancy there is between Rockville and Annandale. What I found is that there is not a whole lot of difference between the two. Most of my data came from http://www.bestplaces.com/, which is a real estate-based website and thus wouldn't have a political bias.

The sales tax rate for Rockville residents is 5.00% and income taxes are 7.95%. For Annandale, those numbers are 5.00% and 5.75%, respectively. So, yes, Rockville has higher income tax. We also have much higher household income ($102,819 vs. $94,108 in Annandale), with a higher percentage of households making an income of $150,000 or higher (31.14 vs. 23.14% in Annandale). We also have a slightly lower percentage of households making $50,000 or less (20.41 vs. 21.11% in Annandale).

(Continued)

The demographics of the two are similar, and Montgomery County certainly does not have a higher rate of non-native born residents (who, by implication of several posters here, automatically makes them parasitic freeloaders). While the percentage of Montgomery County residents of Hispanic or Latino origin increased between 2000 and 2010 from 11.52% to 17.02%, there was an even greater growth rate in Annandale (from 14.49% to 27.62%), so all the people who are demonizing Casa de Maryland won't find a refuge in Northern Virginia. While Montgomery County has a large number of Asian immigrants (13.94%), that is much higher in Annadale (24.64%). And while Rockville has a high percentage of Asian residents (14.8%), according to Wikipedia the nearby municipalities of North Potomac (27.6%) and Potomac (15%) are even higher.

Housing in Rockville is more expensive (median home cost $486,100 vs. Annandale's $458,900) but property tax rate is much higher ($12.02 vs $10.67). The number of renters is lower in Rockville (23.03% versus 26.52%). The median age of Rockville's homes is only 20.9, versus 42.2 years in Annandale (48.72% were built after 1990, versus 3.45% for Annandale). The number of homes worth more than $500,000 is much higher in Rockville: 48.19% versus 37.8% in Annandale.

(Continued)

Rockville is taking those property taxes and spending them on education: school expenditure per pupil is $8,183 per pupil with a pupil/teacher ratio of 13.5; Annandale spends $7,219 per pupil, with a pupil/teacher ratio of 10.8. I don't think there's any doubt that education is the motivating factor for people living here, and they're willing to pay for that to have their children in one of the best school systems in the country.

(Oh, and by the way - almost all of this data has been extrapolated from the US Census, and a lot of the more recent data was from the American Community Survey.)

Jeff, I don't think expanding our nuclear energy base is a political problem, especially since we don't have obvious vested fossil fuel interests here in Maryland. In my opinion, public fear of nuclear energy is the main obstacle, and that's a matter of educating the voters. For example, Garrett Park, here in Montgomery County, has declared itself a "nuclear free zone". While I think their intentions are good, the residents are woefully misinformed about the benefits and risks of nuclear energy, in my opinion. Further, our present respresentative in Congress, Van Hollen, seems to be strongly anti-nuclear, although I don't see that he would strongly influence the state legislature.

Jeff, I think energy independence is the number one issue for Maryland and for the USA. It's the obviously way out of our economic crises. To that end, I have written to our Congressman and to our Senators concerning nuclear energy. Both of our senators have responded favorably. Van Hollen never bothered to reply at all. I don't know what our state representatives and state senators think about it, but we don't seem to be making big strides towards exploiting nuclear energy.

$9.6 billion for a 1.6 Gigawatt reactor sounds way overinflated. Last time I heard, an entire nuclear aircraft carrier only cost about $3 billion. I would sure like to examine the cost components for that estimate. Any Navy project managers out there with hard cost data?

Jeff, like I wrote earlier, we need a civilian version of Hyman Rickover, father of the US nuclear Navy, to champion the cause of domestic nuclear power. Without Rickover, we probably still would not have any nuclear subs, aircraft carriers, or cruisers. Our fleets would be dependent on fuel stops for diesel oil at Dubai. It's going to take a charismatic and knowledgable individual to lead us to an energy breakthrough.

Thanks, Macadoodle, for your endorsement. Two hundred years ago, when Congressman served for two years pretty much because it was their turn and their duty, I might have been interested. Today, I am an engineer by training and experience, not a politician. I will recommend Ken Timmerman over Van Hollen in the next election, however. Timmerman is definitely in favor of nuclear energy, although I don't necessarily endorse his other views. With him in Congress, and with our two senators in favor of nuclear energy, perhaps federal aid might enable Maryland to afford an expansion of its nuclear energy base. As we have been discussing, as an energy exporting state, taxes might become either nonexistent or a non-issue for Marylanders. Wouldn't that be nice!

It is NOT the burden on the individual that should be at issue, it is the burden on those businesses in montgomery county who will no longer be recieving that 1 million dollars a week in income. People will still pay their mortgages and car payments..Tthey will just forgoe a dinner here and a dinner there, or not get the car detailed, or buy only clothes on sale. This will hurt busineses who are the ones who pay the salaries. The state is taking 62 million from the county and giving 10 milion back. We are being robbed.

This county wastes so much money it is not funny. We will be just like california within a decade. Look at the demographics of income and population growth. It is unsustainableThe poor are making babies at 5 times the rate of the affluent. Most residents are unaware that the county hands out welfare food stamps free healthcare and rent subsidies like water from a fountain.

Everything the county buys is at retail plus. there is rampant overtime in the police department that costs us millions. The beaureucrats make everything hard to accomplish to preserve their jobs.

Be careful for what you wish for... nobody rides for free.. (except the illegals)

That was from the perspective of my son who lives in VA (all 3 sons refused to live in MoCo where they were born and raised) who had not driven through MoCo for at least 10 years. VA which I visit often is abuzz with construction projects: roads, metro, buildings, schools, overpasses, homes although with the recession, things have slowed down somewhat. MoCo is totally ignoring its decrepit roads preferring to reeducate people including seniors to ride bicycles. It's building bikepaths and sidewalks for walking.... where to, who knows. I'm sure they'll install toll booths soon for bicycles. Over the past decade, apartment buildings and stores sprang up all along the metro lines in VA from Arlington to Tyson's Corner, while MoCo still does massive studies, checks for bird approval, and has as much progress as a gerbil on one of those squeaky wheels. Look at Glenmont and Forest Glen, for examples. VA stands for vibrancy. Lower taxes. Growth. And the State has a balanced budget. My dream is to move there soon. My problem: who will buy my condo?
P.S. Because the older, suburban demographic might frequent this thread doesn't mean they don't have good ideas.

I am a lifelong resident of Montgomery County and also worked in the County for the past 15 years. I recently changed jobs and now work in VA due to better pay and career opportunities. I must acknowlege the difference in business climates is staggering. I denied it for years and years but now I truly understand why businesses consistently choose VA over MD. I will be making a permanent move across the River - which I thought I would never do. The irresponsible politicians at both the State and local levels continue unsustainable spending on the backs of individuals. If they were business owners they would have been out of business many years ago. I am tired of paying for fraudulant pensions for police officers that retire early on disability with hangnails then go get another police job. The bag tax, the energy tax, that was promised to be temporary, another property tax increase (this is their favorite). I could go on and on but it is late.
Good bye and good riddance Montgomery County, MD. May you never meet a tax you don't embrace holeheartedly. Your not getting my money anymore!!!!!

Instead of moving out of Montgomery County, why not vote out the tax and spend politicians at both the county and state level that are raising our taxes? The State representatives from Montgomery County that voted for the income tax increase are representing the interests of Baltimore County and not Montgomery County.

Totally agree, Ellis. Can you recommend which candidates are for lower taxes and which are for high ones, so that we know how to cast our votes?

Jag, we disagree concerning anti-growth proponents being responsible for higher taxes. Quite the opposite. In fact, urban areas are not self sustaining with respect to infrastructure, and so the surrounding inhabitants get hit with higher taxes to support them. The most obvious example in Maryland is the City of Baltimore, a sinkhole for our taxes. At the other extreme, rural areas are almost totally self sustaining. They do not require wide roads, and those roads do not wear out as often because the traffic is light. Further, they do not require public water or sewer, only electricity. Finally, they do not require a high density of public schools, or public transportation, or public libraries. So the taxes are low. Somewhere between these extremes are self sustaining communities that enjoy low, or at least affordable taxes. Based upon the history of Montgomery County, those were the low density suburban communities that existed until circa 1970. Since then, relentless urbanization of Montgomery County has resulted in inevitable tax increases.

We still disagree, Jag, and your counterargument has many flaws. First and foremost, those rural people do not require water and sewer, only transmission lines for electricity. They function quite nicely on low maintenance well and septic, as residents of my Rockville/Potomac neighborhood have for many decades. The only utility bill we receive is from Pepco. Those 800 people per block that you mention in Bethesda require an unbelievable amount of external support to get their water, sewer, and other goods and services. The high population density places directly or indirectly an incredible burden on roads, police, and fire departments, and school systems. They live in the urban environment not because it is financially or taxwise efficient, but simply because it is convenient for their employment. Common sense and experience amply demonstrate that the further one lives from an urban area, the less expensive it is for homesites, produce, and other costs of living. In the USA, urban areas basically developed as seaports. That explains almost every major city in the USA, including Baltimore. They were essential for bringing goods into and out of the country, and to that extent they were economically necessary; however, as residential areas and for other functions other than as a port they have never been economical. The ultimate proof is in the proverbial pudding. As Montgomery County has become increasingly urbanized, the taxes have skyrocketed.

Jag, NYC and rural Mississippi are exteme examples for which it is probably not valid to draw a general conclusion. For example, we do not send federal tax subsidies to either mostly rural Alaska or Texas. I doubt we send them to Colorado. In fact, these states and others have substantial natural resources that are not only self sustaining, but actually profitable for their populations. Note that neither Alaska nor Texas have state income taxes, and there are certain counties in Colorado that have no property taxes! Getting back to NYC, the State of New York has arguably the most oppressive property taxes in the nation, far worse than even Montgomery County. It is almost certainly no coincidence that New York also has one of the largest urban areas in the nation that requires massive amounts of support from the rest of the state.

Yes, Jag, NYC has an incredible concentration of wealth, but it largely remains in private hands. The public coffers per capita are probably pretty damn meager! But we'll simply agree to disagree on this. It seems we belong to different groups with respect to lifestyle preferences, that is, rural versus urban.

Yes, Jag, I agree that we must agree to disagree. With respect to Northern Virginia, as my dissertation advisor often said, "It all depends upon your point of view." You applaud the development there. In contrast, a close family member is being devastated by it. For decades, she lived on a quiet suburban street enjoying her garden and swimming pool. Within the last couple years, urbanization has pretty much destroyed her lifestyle. The Silver Line has plunked a massive, noisy, disruptive rail work yard just a few houses down from hers. To accompany that, a Dominion Power substation, with 90 foot power poles, has been plunked even closer. These projects violated every local zoning ordinance and environmental law imaginable, including the Chesapeake Bay watershed preservation laws, but the local supervisors simply waived them. She and her neighbors have been in no way compensated for the obvious loss of value in their properties. To the contrary, the utilities threatened to confiscate their properties using eminent domain, for pennies on the dollar, if they dared to protest too loudly. That's what urbanization does.

Jag, we may agree substantially on your last set of comments. I don't regard development along those thin strips in Montgomery County as urbanization. In any case, it's been a good discussion. Have a good holiday weekend.

As a long time MD resident, I have no issue with the tax increase, as I have seen so many benefits derived from living here. Few places in this country have seen house prices rise so nicely, enjoy a the number one nationally ranked public education system, and public services that are top-rated as well.

Personally, in less than 10 years the value of my current house has doubled, while many folks I know in Florida, Ohio and the Pittsburgh area have seen home values plummet. So for that reason alone, I would definitely pay more taxes. Additionally, I have two children in public schools getting excellent educations, with an extremely diverse group of friends and classmates from around the world. They are exposed to so many cultures, races, religions, etc., which is priceless. I love to see children grow up with wonder in their eyes and desire to learn more, where a college degree is considered a must-have, where taking care of the environment is part of the school culture, where folks smile and say hello.

Love this county and the great State of Maryland and I am willing to pay the "Cover Charge" to get in and hear the wonderful music...

Those are good sentiments, Online Addict; however, if you subject them to close scrutiny then you might be less complacent. First, let's examine the appreciation of your home, which you report has doubled in value in the past 10 years. That's an annual return of about 7 percent; however, you are paying about 1 percent in property taxes. That makes your annual return about 6 percent, which is no better than a conservative mutual fund. Not that stellar an investment, but, as you point out, better than losing half your money in a Florida real estate bubble. With respect to the high quality of education, your children would still receive the same if the school budget, and your property taxes, were drastically slashed. As we have been discussing, much of that school budget is squandered on unnecessary construction that benefits greedy builders not students, as exemplified by the new Blair High School. The money is not going to better education per se. So, you could be even happier and wealthier if Montgomery County were less tax crazy.

Continuing our discussion, Online Addict, let's talk investments and then the school system. I did not suggest your home appreciation was no better than a money market account. I said it was no better than a conservative mutual fund. Big difference. Further, our homes are paper investments. Until we sell them, any profit is illiquid. Meanwhile, the exorbitant property taxes we pay are a cash drain. For retired folks especially, this can make the difference between staying in one's home or being forced out of it, for example, if that home has appreciated from $100 thousand in the 1970s, to over $1 million today. More in a moment...

MONTGOMERY COUNTY TAXES, PART II: Now let's talk a little more about Montgomery County schools. I can offer a relatively rare perspective because I am a product of that school system, beginning with elementary school all the way through high school graduation. It was a great school system then, arguably even better than what it is today. A disproportionate number of my classmates went on to top tier colleges like MIT and the Ivy League, including yours truly. But our success was not determined by expensive campuses that look more like country clubs. It was mostly the exceptional brilliance of student peers, that challenged and sometimes exhausted our teachers, and for which there seems no obvious explanation. I'll close with a firsthand experience that may open your eyes. I live within walking distance of Wooton High School, and, being mostly retired, I responded to a radio ad by Montgomery County for math and science teachers. Since I have a Ph.D. in engineering, awards for my university level teaching experience and no criminal record, I applied. The Board of Education must have thought I was joking, because it never even called me for an interview. That taught me that our school system does not hire the best and the brightest, even as cheap substitute teachers! It must be wasting our tax dollars in countless other ways.

The exorbitant taxes we pay is all in the eye of the beholder, I currently pay approximately $9,100 in taxes which seems like a reasonable fee for living in such a wonderful community with such great resources. Given that private schools in this area charge at least $15,000 per child, I am up $20,000! As to my house not meeting the 7% growth goal your mutual fund is achieving, you are ignoring the wonderful benefits I am getting from living in this investment, watching my children grow up here, holding parties and gatherings of neighbors and family, this house has given me more than any mutual fund could ever give!

As to your experiences with the school, sorry to hear it did not work out, but I wonder at your placing yourself above all the fine teachers at Wooton, guess I am glad my children are not there. As to the wasting money on school facilities, let me just say that three years ago we went to my daughters school, and my wife was able to find her old locker, still there after 30 years! Same building, at least one of the same teachers! And yes, the students in both my daughters schools are strong and a good match for their teachers. Note well thought, that the teachers are not there to be the "brightest", they are there to guide the discussion, instill a desire for the students to do more, to engage and energize the discussions. They are stellar motivators; and I judge that from the national achievements I have seen these peers earn in the past year!

I told my delegates that we would not mind paying more tax to help those less fortunate than ourselves BUT the threshold should be adjusted for cost-of-living in the various counties. It is so much more expensive here than in any other part of the state. On 150k in MoCo, you are middle-middle class; in Western Maryland or on the Eastern Shore, your dollars go much further. And we already have the highest income tax rates in the state (Howard, Prince George's, and Queen Anne are at the same rate) although our property taxes are not the highest in the state. So if they'd taken into account cost-of-living, I wouldn't have objected to this higher tax. I think it is grossly unfair that they did not do so. Moreover, as someone else says - take it from me in income taxes and I won't have it to spend on something that generates sales tax and supports businesses.

Hey, Ellen, 25 years ago property taxes were much more affordable. They were less than $2,000 on my house back then. Now they are over $10 thousand. Unfortunately, my income did not increase fivefold, and so the taxes as disproportionately high and an increasing burden to bear. That's why we're complaining.

Hey, Ellen, that IS the tax on the reappraised value. It was even more a couple years ago. Also, I would caution you and others NOT to challenge the appraisal because Montgomery County has tricks up its sleeve. A friend of mine successfully challenged the appraisal of her Bethesda home, but her taxes actually went up. Why? Because in lowering the appraisal, the County automatically removed the homestead exemption! Switching gears a bit, I sense there is a demographic disconnect among our respondents. There is a middle aged group, still employed full time, with children in public school who think they are getting a great bargain for their taxes. Then there is a retired group, living on pensions and investments, with few if any County benefits. Trouble is, both groups are paying the same taxes but receiving very different services. It seems like a bargain to one, but punitive bordering on unaffordable to the other. I wonder what the solution is other than being forced to move.

I'm sorry but you seem kind of paranoid to me. I did have my home reassessed and I was aware of the Homestead exemption issue - they very honestly told me about it before I even applied. However, the assessment was so high that even without the homestead exemption, our taxes were still lower after the reassessment. I think you need to stop thinking that people are out to trick you and instead ask questions and educate yourself.

Yes, we are still employed. Wish we could retire. Never had kids, and frankly, I think the public schools are mostly lousy. If I had kids, I would home-school. Our schools may be better than most but that isn't saying much. Anyway, I have no pension to look forward to, and I anticipate having to sell my house and move to something smaller/cheaper when the time comes. Like out of the U.S. Don't assume that younger generations have it so good. I was unable to even buy a home here until the prices and mortgage rates dropped in 2009. For someone of my generation, renting is considered failure, but unless I moved to PG County, there was no way I could buy a home in this area.

If anything, the 20-somethings are in for an incredibly rough ride. And you and I both need them to be able to buy our homes.

I think you have plenty of services available to you, but remember, you may no longer have kids in school but your home value is still dependent on having a good school system so that people will want to buy into your area.

Hey, Ellen, "paranoid" is an awfully strong term to use in this discussion. In any case, my friend who was surprised when her taxes actually increased after reappraisal is quite bright. She has a Ph.D. in microbiology, and is one of the most cautious individuals I know. She was still in for an unpleasant surprise thanks to the County. Based upon the background that you disclosed, it seems you have even more reasons to complain about taxes than most of the respondents. In any case, no one should be forced out of their principal residence of more than 20 years because of unaffordable property taxes. That just does not seem right.

An advanced degree in microbiology doesn't mean you understand how property taxes work. Being bright doesn't mean you take the time to figure it out. Despite your friend's routine caution, she apparently did not exercise her customary caution in this case.

Sorry to call you paranoid, but you are the one who implied that your friend was tricked. That implies that the county was out to get your friend in a game of gotcha. I was very impressed with the tax assessor I dealt with. He was very patient, answered all my questions, and the number he came back with was fair.

There is a generation gap. I am the tail end of the baby boom and I was raised to think that things are always going to get better, that if you work hard and do a good job you will always have a job, that loyalty is rewarded, yadda yadda. Turns out that isn't true and lucky for me, I've learned to adapt. I've come to realize that fair and right have nothing to do with it; if the house costs you too much for whatever reason, then you do what you have to do and move. It's life, and life can suck. We are leaving the country when that time comes. Not right? Maybe. But we are going to make lemonade and turn it into an adventure. We can't afford to retire in the U.S., so we've made another plan.

I see your generation doesn't see it that way. My parents can't cope with the fact that things didn't turn out the way they had thought they would.

Change is the only constant. Expect the unexpected.

Amen, It's the Taxes Stupid. Perhaps the problem here in Montgomery County is in the religious fervor with which money is thrown at the public school system. Based on personal observations over the decades of living here, and reinforced by many of the comments in this thread, it borders on the irrational. Fancy country club campuses with tennis courts, and elective courses like photography (by the way, I am an award winning photographer without the benefit of such courses) aren't going to make our little darlings any smarter or better prepared for top tier colleges. In the present political climate, denying money to Montgomery County public schools is akin to blasphemy, like slandering Motherhood and Apple Pie. Some time ago, we actually had a County Executive, Morton Kramer, who stood up to the teacher's union with respect to their annual demand for a substantial pay increase. He was voted out the next term.

Made a journey which I don't usually take from Kensington to Bethesda, parts of MoCo's "wedges and corridors" less-than-smart growth "plan" at 2:30pm Friday. It took almost 40 minutes to get there. In case anyone hasn't noticed in their oblivion of thinking that Montgomery County is a great place to live, the trip was yet another eye-opener in what is so wrong with our diminishing quality of life. The roads traveled are horrendous. More jolts than you can get from sticking your finger into an electrical outlet. Lines of cars as far as the eye could see: unbelievable congestion at Jones Bridge and Connecticut and Wisconsin as the car rumbled boom-boom into crevices in the roads. Does no one see the condition of the roads in their blind infatuation with this County? If you try to bring it to the attention of Council members, they say they're State roads, call the State and they say that's the Council's job. Where are our State legislators on this one as we pour millions which go into improving Baltimore's streets and not ours? We are the cash cow for the State and precious few dollars are thrown our way to make our lives a bit better. Local government's job is to provide for our public safety: police and fire, support the schools which except for a few are rapidly deteriorating, have an efficient government providing services to the taxpayers including road maintenance. Or am I wrong?

Was waiting for the typical PROG vicious personal attacks on persons who disagree with their point of view. Most of the other comments in this thread have reflected civil discourse with respect for another point of view. FYI, it was not a joyful jaunt, it was to transport a disabled person to a doctor's appointment. And holiday or not, the traffic and dilapidated road situation is an everyday part of life in legendary MoCo where it can take you 20 minutes to travel the 2 miles to the beltway in this congested corridor over roads which equal those in Chad or Bolivia. Secondly, I don't live in a crap condo. There are numerous other quite large and nice condos for sale in the building but the market is not there. High property taxes are a factor. Your rabid, out-of-line and unnecessarily disrespectful comments are an indicator of the vast divide in this County and makes one so much more determined to leave such a toxic environment.

Mr. Piotr: I made no bad decisions at all and I'm not blaming road conditions for the inability of people to sell their property. I'm blaming high property taxes (mine increased by $500 last year when my assessment went down). County or state government is charged with the responsibility of having decent roads and using tax money to improve them. That's basic like police and fire protection, good schools, plowed roads when there is snow, and not an inordinate demand. If the people in the County are happy with it, so be it. Majority rules. As a more than 50-year resident of this County, I've seen many negative changes but as an incurable optimist, had hoped that things would improve but it's getting worse not better. Your countryman and my hero, Lech Walesa, saw things that he believed had to be changed and challenged the system. And won. Not far different from my attitude of fighting to make things better. But alas, I see that is impossible in this County and State as it has a very tight one-party system that resists change. Consider my comments my exit interview, an accepted tradition in this country when a person leaves a job. When you decided to move to this country (by the way, the homeland of my ancestors), I read some positive things you said about your adopted land. When I move, I will certainly be saying some similarly positive things about the place I choose to live.

"MOCO schools are good because well to do people who value education live here. The money is only a part of the picture." Thank you, Steve Warner. I could not have said it better myself. When I was in high school at Montgomery Blair circa 1965, my classmates and I joked that we were getting a good education despite the Montgomery County public school system. By the way, with respect to quality teachers, we were enrolled in an AP mathematics class during my senior year. Today it would probably be called calculus. In any case, our teacher was arrested for espionage. It turned out that he had a second job after hours as a mathematics consultant to a defense contractor, and he was convicted for selling sensitive information to the Soviets. But he was a good math teacher! In my opinion, our property taxes and school budget are so high because the teacher's union and the construction industry have undue influence in county politics, contributing heavily to the campaigns of candidates who favor them. They have created an atmosphere of "edu-pamperism," that is, nothing is too expensive or too frivolous for our school system.

Empire State losing its citizens as well as California. For those who are happy in a high-tax State, that's perfectly fine. At least for the time being, there are other states which are an escape hatch for those who are not happy with the status quo and have no prospects of changing it. No bitterness. No angst. A decision of choice.
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/escape-new-york-high-taxing-empire-state-loses-34-million-residents-10-years

I wrote a post that disappeared, but basically I actually checked the facts (gasp!) and guess what? MoCo teachers make about the same as those in DC and Fairfax. A little less than DC, a little more than Fairfax, but Fairfax has something called extended day pay and I don't know if that is the equivalent of MoCo's regular pay or not. Obviously, they have to be competitive with nearby school systems. So all those yapping about MoCo's exorbitant teacher salaries - STOP. You are just plain wrong. Learn to google. It is all public info. FYI, it is about 46k to start (not bad for just-out-of-college, but not liveable in most of MoCo; goes up to 70k after 10 years and many more credits, and max is 103k with all-but-Ph.D).

Sorry, Ellen, but $46K to start out of teaching college and $103K for a teacher who doesn't quite have a Ph.D. is absolutely ridiculous for public schools. All that you have shown by your research is that teachers in the DC area are incredibly overpaid, which supports the hypothesis that our property taxes are way too high. I'll remind you that I applied to be a substitute math and science teacher here in Montgomery County, and I actually have a Ph.D. from MIT in engineering, plus university teaching awards. The County school board did not even bother to invite me for an interview. That experience, plus the salaries you quote, say clearly to me that the teachers' union has a stranglehold on this county, and probably on DC and Fairfax County as well..

Sorry again, Ellen, but quoting median salaries is just using statistics to obfuscate reality. As Benjamin Disraeli was fond of saying, "There are lies. There are damn lies. Then, there are statistics." A public school teacher in Montgomery County without a Ph.D.---or even with one, for that matter---commanding $103K is an insult to the taxpayers. If the County dared to have a referendum putting a cap on teacher's salaries, that lofty level would never pass.

Jerry - earlier, I called you paranoid and you objected. Now I am thinking paranoid and angry. You keep telling us this anecdote about how you weren't even interviewed. That anecdote is just that - a story. Sample size of one and it tells us nothing about the issue (the appropriateness of teacher salaries). But it does suggest to me that you have a grudge or multiple grudges against MoCo, its government, and the school system. I don't know what the mean or median public school salary is elsewhere in the country but before I rant about something, I take a moment to try to find the information. I also don't know if 103k after 19 years/60 credits beyond the master's is a lot or not.

How much would you want to be paid with your Ph.D and teaching awards?

Ellen, when you use words like "paranoid" and "angry," that just shows that your argument is weak and you must resort to emotional epithets to try to sustain your point of view. You asked what salary I was expecting as a substitute math and science teacher? The answer is hardly any. I can earn much more as a consultant and expert witness. My motivation for applying for the job was twofold. First, I wanted to give something back to the community. I can walk to Wooton High School, and it would have been easy for me to motivate some students to pursue engineering and science careers, plus I could have written some surefire recommendations to my alma mater. The second reason was simply to satisfy curiosity. I wanted to know if the school board would avail itself of teaching sources in the community among retired and semi-retired professionals. Evidently, it doesn't give a damn. No reason for the taxpayers to subsidize arrogance like that.

Ellen, it's arguable whether "arrogant" is an emotional term; however, it is not nearly as accusatory as "paranoid" and "angry". So, I suggest we tone down the accusations in the interests of civility. With respect to following up my application to be a substitute math and science teacher, it was a number of years ago, and so the precise details are now a bit fuzzy. But, yes, I did call to make sure the application was received, and it was. Evidently, they just didn't know what to make of it, and that speaks volumes in this dialogue. With respect to factually demonstrating that teachers are not overpaid, one needs to think outside the box. For example, arguably, the Internet provides as much educational power as the old fashioned classroom. In fact, many universities offer on-line courses and degrees. How would this impact the need for the number of public school teachers and their total cost to the taxpayers? An interesting analogy might be photography. To continue imaging with a traditional 16 x 20 glass plate view camera would be prohibitively expensive; however, expendable digital cameras have reduced that cost by orders of magnitude.

Jerry. The fact that distance learning requires less physical infrastructure and therefore may reduce the overall cost doesn't mean that the teachers aren't worth as much. Aside from your lack of EVIDENCE that distance learning teachers are paid less (and lack of evidence to back up everything you've argued; you dimiss data but then offer anecdotes), your logic is lacking, too. Having taught a distance learning course (master's level and not by choice!) I can tell that it requires considerable effort and creativity to get the students fully engaged. Continued to the logical extreme, why have teachers at all? Why not just post the material online and let students read it and take an exam? You seem to have a low opinion of the value of good teaching.

You have offered no EVIDENCE that teachers in MoCo are underpaid. When you have some, please do share it with everyone. Until then, all you have is your unsupported opinion. To which you are entitled, but the rest of us are entitled to discount it.

Michael, I don't know where www.taxpayers.org gets its data; however, it is not clear how it applies to this discussion. That fact is, Alaska actually has a NEGATIVE state income tax attributable to its massive oil resources. A properly qualified Alaska resident actually receives a significant dividend or subsidy check from the state just for being a citizen. Evidently, Alaska finds no reason extract a portion of income from its citizens. How does this reconcile with the federal assistance that www.taxpayers.org reports? Most likely it is some political backroom wheeling and dealing. Does that mean Alaska actually needs that subsidy? Closer to home, do federal subsidies to states, including Maryland, actually correlate with a genuine need for state and county taxes?

Ellen, your experience as an on-line instructor is no less anecdotal than my firsthand experience, both as student in Montgomery County public school system from grades 2 through 12, and as a substitute math and science teacher applicant. Further, if memory of the Laws of Evidence serves correctly, firsthand experience does indeed count as bona fide evidence, just the sort that you demand. Given enough of that evidence, it then becomes the statistical data, which you have been quoting. I'll close by asking a question, which you may elect not to answer. Are you a member of the Montgomery County teacher's union?

No, I am not now nor have I ever been a civil servant, a member of a union, or a teacher, except for the few years teaching as an adjunct at a state university in Virginia (where by the way, we were paid far more than the adjuncts teaching at the universities in Maryland). As for the use of anecdotes, you are mixing apples and oranges. I used my personal experience only to explain why I had knowledge of the issue, not to argue the ultimate issue. You used your one experience to argue that teachers are overpaid, not to explain the source of your information.

And you have yet to provide ANY evidence of any kind for your statement that the teachers are overpaid.

Ellen, your most recent comment suggests a gedanken experiment. The question is whether teachers or overpaid. The experiment is to chart student performance, measured perhaps as test scores, as a function of teacher absenteeism. The idea for this experiment comes once again from my firsthand experience as a student in the Montgomery County public school system. I was in a CPA Physics class at Montgomery Blair circa 1965, and the class met for two hours at a time. The physics teacher was personable and knowledgeable; however, he also had a severe case of asthma. As a result, during the spring semester he was absent far more often than not. The substitute teachers didn't know diddly squat about physics. They were just classroom monitors. But we taught ourselves physics by solving challenging problems at the blackboard. It was a team effort, among just us students, and it was probably the best bit of high school education we ever had. The substitute teachers were aghast. They didn't know what in blazes we were talking about. The physics teacher continued to draw his salary. Was it justified? Ellen, you seem to be talented at mining statistics. Are the data available to perform this experiment?

A gedanken experiment is a thought experiment, but you are suggesting actual data collection. But nice try on the fancy terms.

I am not an expert in educational theory but I'd suggest that unless you can control for the many other factors that affect student performance (such as family income, family educational levels, socio-economic status of the community, and so on) that plotting student performance against teacher pay won't tell you much. You seem to have had the great fortune to have been among a group of highly motivated high-achievers (after all, they were taking physics in high school). Hardly representative of all students in a school system.

Still waiting for your evidence that MoCo teachers are overpaid.

Aha, Ellen, perhaps you just defeated your own argument when you assert that "plotting student performance versus teacher's pay won't tell you much." So, why bother paying teachers top salaries? Whether it's a pure gedanken experiment or mostly data mining, the results might show that student performance are the same if lower priced teachers are employed. Yes, you are correct. I was singularly fortunate to somehow find myself immersed in an incredibly talented group of students. I was hardly the top performer, but some of it rubbed off. The sad epilogue to the story is that the geniuine top performer was killed aboard the airplane that was crashed into the Pentagon on 9/11. We lost a remarkable genius that day. I wonder what he might have thought of this discussion.

I have to leave this discussion before I insult you.

LOL, Jeff. I have to leave the Twilight Zone and get back to work, at least temporarily; however, it has been an informative and entertaining visit. First, I was very pleasantly surprised at the positive reception concerning nuclear power. If we ever act on that consensus, there is no doubt Maryland will become a prosperous energy exporting state, and taxes might become a minor concern. I was not surprised at the passionate responses against economizing on our school system, which accounts for roughly half of our property taxes. Related to that dialogue, I attempted to share my firsthand experiences in the Montgomery County public school from grades 2 through 12. I'm surprised no one else did the same. Adios!

80 million to build a high school
2 million for trailers while the remodel a high school (that was made out of brick)

raises for janitors every year including full retirement and benefits... If all you can do is push a broom your salary should STOP at about 35k and you need to DEAL with your failure to improve your lot in life.

Massive waste on almost every purchase made by MCPS

The teachers salaries cap at 103 but don't forget the 60% of salary retirement package and massive time off when they only wor 195 days a year ANYWAY.

The principals and other administrators recive WAY MORE than 103k a year and there are probaly twice as many as they need.

Why has the cost of education gone UP when technology has brought administrative costs DOWN in every other industry?

Why with the low cost of giant High defintiion screens do we need all these field trips? Why does the President of the United state disrupt traffic in the county for hours to vist an elementary school when he can skype and call on those students by name? He would be 15 feet tall pon a big screen and LIVE!

Montgomery county wastes money everywhere on everyting.... we plant trees underneath power lines and streetlamps and then blame pepco when they break....
We install wheel chair ramps and yellow blind pads inthe median on conncecticut avenue where it is 6 lanes and not at an intersection.. (just north of Weller road as you come down the hil)

Illegal immigrants can come to Montgomery county on a monday with a baby and get FREE health care for the baby and the mother, food stamps and put on a list for free or subsidized housing.

We plow bike paths in winter so that idiots can ride bicycles on black ice.

The police can switch to 30/40% smaller cars and call for backup when they need to arrest somebody. there is no reason for a bazillion hemis running around sucking fuel.
The court system and get a reality check and have all the small cases heard in a classroom without al of the pomp and circumstance for smal junk. (use an empty schools classroom)

Have any of you ever been to the county office building ? it is a palace compared to the small busineses that stuggle to pay for it. Why should we EVER pay for art? let people donate it, put photos of the art work online and let citizens vote up or down as acceptable and appropriate.

Stop all the out of town trips. The internet can take these people anywhere they need to go. Make employees take online classes like small business do with their employees.

This county wastes about 40 cents on every dollar....
Name ONE area that is not a waste

Good stuff, Mr. Marshall, especially about the stuff, especially the outlandish sculptures, which pass for artwork. Unfortunately, your on-the-mark comments will unleash a storm of criticism, perhaps even vicious comments, from those intent on attacking the messenger. For what it's worth from me, thumbs up.

Does anyone remember P.G. County in 1970. It was the wealthiest county in the area. O'Malley is just driving another stake into a dying body with more tax increases. The truth will set you free. Maybe some of you should start reading the local paper:
1. MOCO budget increased by 38% from end of 2005 thru 2009 - Information available on county website.
2. Although Montgomery’s population — about 1 million — grew by 100,000 from 2000 to 2010, the county lost about 5,500 jobs during that same period. Friday, October 07, 2011 Gazette.Net
3. Montgomery expects to pay about $290 million in interest and payments associated with its debt this year — a figure that would increase to $391 million in the next four years at the current rate, according to a county report released earlier this year. In fiscal 2002, the county’s debt service was $177 million. Wednesday, October 05, 2011 Gazette.Net
4. Medium household income in Montgomery County dropped about 4.5% in 2010. Fairfax, Arlington and Loudon had increases.
5. The percentage of Montgomery families living below the poverty level has climbed from 3.7 percent in 2000 to 6.7 percent in 2010, according to Census data. Wednesday, October 12, 2011 Gazette.Net

"Power tends to corrupt". Absolute power corrupts absolutely" Lord Acton 1887